Songwriting: Breaking Away from the I IV V

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Silencio
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Post by Silencio »

bassjones wrote:and encourage your bass player to get off the root, he can imply a chord inversion by playing the 3rd, 5th or 7th instead and may open your ear to the next chord.
Good idea. We just discussed this a little in that "Should I stop playing guitar?" thread. McCartney was a kind of primitive genius at this: defining the chord by changing the bottom note.

In that other thread I mentioned that I was doing a jingle demo last year, a kind of Phil Spector-y/R&B thing with a feel similar to Mariah Carey's "All I Want For Christmas Is You." There was a gospel turnaround in the hook that really felt right, but was just a little too every-day... screwing around with the bass part, I stumbled over a really unexpected note choice that transformed the chord into this huge, massive, Ambrosia-esque thing that tore your head off.

One note.

That's a tough thing for guitar players to get under their skin. We often learn to play sitting alone, playing songs, and so we tend to strum all six strings, leaning on our favorite inversions, thinking "That's a G, that's a C" as we play the same voicings we always play. But some of the really interesting harmonies work best when you only play three of your available six notes, for example, and experiment with raising and lowering just one of those notes to hear what happens.

Hey, there's another nice way to change your head a little: buy a set of fingerpicks.
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Post by Garr »

Interesting. I dig it. I'm glad I started this thread.
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Post by Austin_Taunt »

Yo Garr,

Awesome that you are taking the time to change this for yourself!! I had the same problem and I decided to take some lessons studying jazz. I find this style the best to keep your rock roots. Refreshed a bunch on theory and studied an outside style. I personally dont find theory super useful for me unless its in improvising(progressions/solos) but it does help to change voicings. I can hook you up with a couple kick butt teachers if you are interested.

PS. There is also classical guitar. I studied this for three years and I found it rocked for soloing and pick hand control. More of a technique thing tho so kinda off topic.
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Post by bassjones »

McCartney was a kind of primitive genius at this: defining the chord by changing the bottom note.
That's why McCartney is on my list of 10 favorite players. From a purely technical standpoint he's not in the same league with Stanley, Jaco, Victor, etc..., but his lines are a thing of beauty. I've incorporated a lot of "McCartneyisms" into my playing the more I've listened to him. Phil Lesh is another one who was great at that, along with Sting. Phil especially had a unique way of not playing the root on 1, which contributed to that open sound of the Dead.

anyway... yes, you can really change the tonality of a chord by changing the bottom note. It works best in groups with piano/keyboard, especially Gospel, R&B and Jazz, but can be effective with guitar driven groups as well.
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Post by Silencio »

bassjones wrote:Phil Lesh is another one who was great at that, along with Sting...

....It works best in groups with piano/keyboard, especially Gospel, R&B and Jazz, but can be effective with guitar driven groups as well.
I joke frequently that when I'm working out lines for a pop tune, I should just wear a bracelet that reads "WWSD:" What would Sting do? :D


Effective in guitar driven groups when the guitar players aren't just cranking out open fifth power chords... well, like the Beatles. McCartney, Harrison and especially Lennon were all inventive rhythm players.
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Post by Steel String Bender »

Lots of great suggestions here guys. Nicely done!
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Post by WBOB »

That's why McCartney is on my list of 10 favorite players. From a purely technical standpoint he's not in the same league with Stanley, Jaco, Victor, etc..., but his lines are a thing of beauty. I've incorporated a lot of "McCartneyisms" into my playing the more I've listened to him. Phil Lesh is another one who was great at that, along with Sting. Phil especially had a unique way of not playing the root on 1, which contributed to that open sound of the Dead.
Yes,.....
Effective in guitar driven groups when the guitar players aren't just cranking out open fifth power chords... well, like the Beatles. McCartney, Harrison and especially Lennon were all inventive rhythm players.
yes,.....
Lots of great suggestions here guys. Nicely done!
and finally yes...!

Great thread
.


Less is always more
Garr
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Post by Garr »

bassjones wrote:alternate minor for verses, start on a minor chord (6, 2 or 3), 6-2-5 turnarounds, chord inversions, Maj/Min 7 chords, altertnate tunings. Force yourself to listen to non I-IV-V music for a while. The minor 6 is a very useful chord.
Can you elaborate more on this part? Are you suggesting to just randomly throw in some of those, or is there some bit of fit to be found?

I very seldom start ANYTHING on a minor chord, so that will definitely be a challenge for me and kind of force my ear in new directions.
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Post by bassjones »

Say a song is in C Major, write the verse on a minor, so the verse progression would be vi-ii-iii and the chorus would be I-IV-V. To make it work make the final progression of the verse, vi-ii-V, so the dominant easily leads to the I. Lots of variations on that, but you get the idea. ii and vi often make nice opening chords. Another fairly common progression is I-vi-ii-V - I (etc...)
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Post by Garr »

Yeah. Okay, that seems to make a bit more sense. I didn't quite catch what you were saying before. To make sure that I understand, though, you're saying to play minor 6th, 2nd, and 3rd in the verse to rock out the major chords through the chorus in a I-IV-V there.

Rock on!

Thanks. I'll have to play around with that the next time I have a few minutes.
There are 10 types of people in the world.

Those who understand binary. . .

. . .and those who don't.

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Check out these sites:

[url=http://www.OhSoHumorous.com]OhSoHumorous.com[/url]
[url=http://www.TopDailyMemes.com]TopDailyMemes.com[/url]
[url=http://www.RandomDailyMemes.com]RandomDailyMemes.com[/url]
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[url=http://www.FaceFullOf.com]FaceFullOf.com[/url]
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Post by bassjones »

go to my myspace page and give a listen to Carnival. Doesn't follow that progression completely, but it's pretty similar to that. Song is capo'd, so the key signature is E major and the first chord of the verse is c#minor. Capo it up and play it as a C major starting on a minor and it will be easier. With NoRA and WHN, we just play it in C, but Sunny liked the tonality of it better capo'd up to E major.
"brad!
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adam nitti" www.myspace.com/adamnittimusic

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Post by Dipshit Dave »

Just use 7-9 different chords with no special progression or distinct verses or choruses. Just play em when you feel like it.
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Post by Silencio »

Thanks for living up to the name, Dave.
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Post by Dog »

One thing I'd like to add...

If you have the means to, pick up another instrument. My running from bass to guitar to mandolin to banjo did wonders for different voicings, an' when it came right down to it, e'erything I learned on any one instrument, e'entually, I found a way to apply to any of the others.

Also, Silencio mentioned TMBG. Yes. Having gone through a handful of their songs m'self, you start to understand, that tha' guy started out as a jazz guitarist.

When I first started on guitar, those bastards did nothing but frustrate me. Egotistical, though it may be, I swore they were using chords jus' t'piss me off. I've had similar feelings from the Beatles, an' Jonathan Coulton (A... geek/folk/rock guy, along the lines of TMBG, but with less accordion). But the more you sit an' figure, the more you'll realize wha' they're doin'. An' tha' they use/re-use alot of patterns o'er an' o'er themselves. You may end up having the same 3 progressions, all over again, but damned if they'll be I IV V's.

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Re: Songwriting: Breaking Away from the I IV V

Post by subgenius88 »

Garr wrote:I've been exploring my guitar quite a bit as of late and I can't help the irresistible draw to Tonic, Sub Dominant, Dominant. I know that actually discussing music on this message board is a big no-no, but how do you songwriters out there find ways to break free from your comfortable progression patterns?

Against my better judgment, I'm also going to say that I play primarily in drop tunings (either drop D or drop C) and I think that it might be contributing to this rut, but I'm not sure.

Help?
Might I suggest this book by Adam Kadmon-
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