SMOKING BAN---BARS and Legions NEED YOUR HELP!

Post by **cwallace** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:52 pm

Actually they are all very nice rentals in nice parts of town. North side...NO ghetto houses and 2 of them are not even 15 years old...

These are the $1000 and up rentals...so not crap holes and he is not a slum lord...

Chris

poopstains · Post by **poopstains** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 pm

cwallace wrote:he is not a slum lord...

Chris

Mafia perhaps

=^-..-^= · Post by **=^-..-^=** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:00 am

conley wrote:I'm going to Role-play now:

My working conditions weren't the greatest & I had several employees severely injured; but, it was their choice to work in my environment.....why should I be forced to provide a safe working environment for them? So what if the air was filled with asbestis? Why should I have to address this? So what if the machinery was occasionally malfunctioning and exploding......After all, my business was privately owned, the workers chose to work there & I should be able to do whatever I want to inside the walls of MY business.

Brad answered the environmental issue, so. . .

The workers in the factory are free to work elsewhere; they are also free to organize and demand better working conditions. The boss is also free to fire them if they do. Hopefully, most bosses will realize the value of good trained labor. If you go back to the 1800's, government was seriously in bed with big business, to the point of sending police and hastily formed posses out to bust up unions/strikers. Many Congressmen were in the pocket of big business. If it was truly laissez faire economics in the 1800's, working conditions would have improved faster than they did. Government being so corruptly intertwined with big business (like the Republicans are today) goes against good Libertarian policy as well.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:14 am

=^-..-^= wrote:
conley wrote:I'm going to Role-play now:

My working conditions weren't the greatest & I had several employees severely injured; but, it was their choice to work in my environment.....why should I be forced to provide a safe working environment for them? So what if the air was filled with asbestis? Why should I have to address this? So what if the machinery was occasionally malfunctioning and exploding......After all, my business was privately owned, the workers chose to work there & I should be able to do whatever I want to inside the walls of MY business.
Brad answered the environmental issue, so. . .

The workers in the factory are free to work elsewhere; they are also free to organize and demand better working conditions. The boss is also free to fire them if they do. Hopefully, most bosses will realize the value of good trained labor. If you go back to the 1800's, government was seriously in bed with big business, to the point of sending police and hastily formed posses out to bust up unions/strikers. Many Congressmen were in the pocket of big business. If it was truly laissez faire economics in the 1800's, working conditions would have improved faster than they did. Government being so corruptly intertwined with big business (like the Republicans are today) goes against good Libertarian policy as well.

What he said... Government intervention usually slows progress if anything. Talk to African Americans over 50. Most of them will tell you that Brown v. Board of Ed and the resulting mass bussing, while well-intended, might have been the worst thing to ever happen to black children.

One point of contention though, if you think it's just Republicans corruptly intertwined with big business you haven't been paying attention. Harry Reid is one of the most corrupt politicians in the history of our Republic, and he's far from the only Democrat about whom that's true.

conley · Post by **conley** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:21 am

Brad answered the environmental issue, so. . .

The workers in the factory are free to work elsewhere; they are also free to organize and demand better working conditions. The boss is also free to fire them if they do. Hopefully, most bosses will realize the value of good trained labor. If you go back to the 1800's, government was seriously in bed with big business, to the point of sending police and hastily formed posses out to bust up unions/strikers. Many Congressmen were in the pocket of big business. If it was truly laissez faire economics in the 1800's, working conditions would have improved faster than they did. Government being so corruptly intertwined with big business (like the Republicans are today) goes against good Libertarian policy as well

Yeah, yeah, everybody in America can chose where they work.....Nobody is forced to work to support a family or household......I think a lot of less fortunate people, who are forced to work in not-so-pleasant conditions, would take offense to your whole, "everyone has a choice to chose where they work".....Some people really don't....It's called survival.

I think it's great that you brought up the 1800's; because this country has made a lot of changes since then. We'd probably be stunned at some of the things that were allowed back then. Was prostitution legal back then? Women & minorities were certainly treated differently; but things evolve & changes are made over time to hopefully better society..............like a smoking ban for Ft. Wayne Indiana.

I really think someday, when we're all gone, people will look back on us and say, "Can you believe those morons actually inhaled smoke for pleasure?"

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:41 am

I think people probably will say that, but that doesn't mean it's government's place to stop it. All of the previous major societal changes were brought about by the people demanding it. In this case, the people are fighting it and 8 people are pushing it down their throats because they "know what's best for us". Do you really want to live in a society where 8 people decide what's best for us and jam it down our throats. Anybody remember what happened with prohibition? It spurred unprecedented growth in the mafia and criminal underground.

Want to solve the gang problem? Decriminalize drugs. In NYC there are a ton of illegal underground smokers clubs now. Hey there's an idea... Anybody got some money and want to help me start one? No non-smokers allowed. John Crawford can kiss my ass!

Post by **cwallace** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:03 am

I wish I could 'choose' who hired me...

I wish I had the ability to just quit and go get 'another' job.

Your second option when making that 'choice' not to work for someone somewhere is loss...your home, food for your family, among other things...

There really is no legitimate 'choice' when it comes to where you work...because your other choice back in the day was another factory with the SAME working conditions...

just a point...

Chris

conley · Post by **conley** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:09 am

In hind-sight, I wish the people could have decided, and had a vote on the smoking ban...........I honestly believe the end-result would have been the same.

=^-..-^= · Post by **=^-..-^=** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:13 am

bassjones wrote:
One point of contention though, if you think it's just Republicans corruptly intertwined with big business you haven't been paying attention. Harry Reid is one of the most corrupt politicians in the history of our Republic, and he's far from the only Democrat about whom that's true.

Oh, of course!

The point I was trying to make was that the Republicans claim to be the party of smaller gubbamint, and that, of course, is absolute crap. Colin Powell called the party to task for 'corporate welfare' in his Convention speech, which made him very unpopular in GOP circles.

The Dems want to be your nanny; the Reps want to be your father; the Libertarians want you to grow up and be an adult.

=^-..-^= · Post by **=^-..-^=** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:29 am

cwallace wrote:I wish I could 'choose' who hired me...

I wish I had the ability to just quit and go get 'another' job.

Your second option when making that 'choice' not to work for someone somewhere is loss...your home, food for your family, among other things...

There really is no legitimate 'choice' when it comes to where you work...because your other choice back in the day was another factory with the SAME working conditions...

just a point...

Chris

Wow! Who's blindsided you into believing you still don't have choices in this day and age? Man, have they got you where they want you!

I got tired of my suckass poverty job in a factory and went back to skool. It took 9 years going part time and raising a family. It wasn't easy, and many are not willing to put forth the effort.

DO NOT tell me about not having choices!!!!!

Okay, back in the day, there was a labor surplus because of immigration. Apparently, bad as it was, conditions in America were far superior to conditions in Europe. By the 1920's, the number of people working in cities surpassed the number of people on farms. People willingly flocked to cities to escape the 24/7/365 work hours of farms.

Like I said, if back then, government wasn't in the pocket of big business, unions would have been successful much earlier in achieving better working conditions. Henry Ford instituted the 5 dollar work day mainly to stop employee turnover.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:44 am

and there are always wait-staff positions open everywhere!

@ Conley. I bet if they offered these options it would have turned out like this. Establishments that serve food on a primary basis and those establishments with clientele under age 18 no smoking. Bars and private clubs would permit smoking provided no minors were present - i.e. the same as New Haven's smoking ordinance. I bet Ohio would have had the same result as that had they offered the option of bars remaining smoker-friendly establishments.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:49 am

=^-..-^= wrote:
cwallace wrote:I wish I could 'choose' who hired me...

I wish I had the ability to just quit and go get 'another' job.

Your second option when making that 'choice' not to work for someone somewhere is loss...your home, food for your family, among other things...

There really is no legitimate 'choice' when it comes to where you work...because your other choice back in the day was another factory with the SAME working conditions...

just a point...

Chris
Wow! Who's blindsided you into believing you still don't have choices in this day and age? Man, have they got you where they want you!

I got tired of my suckass poverty job in a factory and went back to skool. It took 9 years going part time and raising a family. It wasn't easy, and many are not willing to put forth the effort.

DO NOT tell me about not having choices!!!!!

Okay, back in the day, there was a labor surplus because of immigration. Apparently, bad as it was, conditions in America were far superior to conditions in Europe. By the 1920's, the number of people working in cities surpassed the number of people on farms. People willingly flocked to cities to escape the 24/7/365 work hours of farms.

Like I said, if back then, government wasn't in the pocket of big business, unions would have been successful much earlier in achieving better working conditions. Henry Ford instituted the 5 dollar work day mainly to stop employee turnover.

I went back to school at age 30 and just recently graduated. All this while working full-time, spending time w/ my family, volunteering a couple of nights a week at my church AND playing in bands. I also gained weight and missed a lot of social events as well as getting very little sleep, but I'd do it again.

There are always options, people just have to sieze them.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:53 am

I work full time on third shift, take care of my son for another 40 hours a week, go to school part time, and manage to somehow still have an acoustic act on top of that. You can do whatever you put your efforts to.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:55 am

Garr wrote:I work full time on third shift, take care of my son for another 40 hours a week, go to school part time, and manage to somehow still have an acoustic act on top of that. You can do whatever you put your efforts to.

You forgot administrating these boards - probably a good 20 hours a week itself.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am

yeah, some of that overlaps a bit, but there's still time put in here as well.