Don't let the door hit you in the backside...

[bwohlgemuth]

Turn it into a sand box?

A billion people left behind in essentially the 15th century while the rest of the world moves into the 21st century.

Not really an option.

[sharkmansix]

Democracy in Iraq...in Afghanistan....in the Middle East. Pointless cause....

Isreal begs to differ.

[bwohlgemuth]

They do...and they are a larger trading partner with the United States than Saudi Arabia.

Besides Israel, can anyone name a major Middle East country that does NOT rely on oil exports for revenue?

[Massage...Bored]

Pointless cause....

Democracy in Iraq...in Afghanistan....in the Middle East. Pointless cause....

So tell me, what do we do with the Middle East?

Nice dramatic text positioning, it reads as if Jeff Goldblum were speaking it.

Leave them alone, they obviously don't have a big problem with living the way they do if they are trying to drive us out of their territory on an hourly basis. It's not our obligation to deliver the sweet fist of democracy to every nation on the planet. Its war mongering and its ugly.

Living in the 15th Century? Wow, have you seen the automobiles and electricity and the coffee bars they have? Completely unmodern times they are living in, your right on the pulse.

[MrSpall]

But Mr. Bored, don't you realize that as Americans we constitute a superior race of peoples and that everyone else should either emulate us or get out of the way? NOTE: The preceding sentence was 100% tongue in cheek.

Democracy by its own definition must be chosen. 'Enforced democracy' is really just a Republican way of saying 'perpetual war'.

[Massage...Bored]

But Mr. Bored, don't you realize that as Americans we constitute a superior race of peoples and that everyone else should either emulate us or get out of the way? NOTE: The preceding sentence was 100% tongue in cheek.

Democracy by its own definition must be chosen. 'Enforced democracy' is really just a Republican way of saying 'perpetual war'.

I think I love you.

[bwohlgemuth]

Leave them alone, they obviously don't have a big problem with living the way they do if they are trying to drive us out of their territory on an hourly basis. It's not our obligation to deliver the sweet fist of democracy to every nation on the planet. Its war mongering and its ugly.

That's a wonderfully isolationist attitude....almost Pat Buchannan-like

These people don't have a problem living in the system they are in because when they do have a problem, they get shot. Or have their throats slashed. Or their families do. There is NO CHOICE in a totalitarian society like Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc...if you think there is, you are more clueless than I could imagine.

Now in Iraq, what was Saddam's solution to the Shia and the Kurds? It wasn't ignoring them....it was bombing them into submission, starving out those who tried to hold out, and then mass executing those who could have been a threat to their system. It worked great at keeping the peace, would you like to see that in action once again?

Living in the 15th Century? Wow, have you seen the automobiles and electricity and the coffee bars they have? Completely unmodern times they are living in, your right on the pulse.

Glad to see you haven't made it past the airport in those countries....

Democracy by its own definition must be chosen. 'Enforced democracy' is really just a Republican way of saying 'perpetual war'.

Democracy can only be chosen when it is an option. It hasn't been in the Middle East (except for Israel and in a few Arab states).

[Massage...Bored]

Now in Iraq, what was Saddam's solution to the Shia and the Kurds? It wasn't ignoring them....it was bombing them into submission, starving out those who tried to hold out, and then mass executing those who could have been a threat to their system. It worked great at keeping the peace, would you like to see that in action once again?

What's our answer again?

Glad to see you haven't made it past the airport in those countries....

Have you? Or have you been watching too much Geraldo?

Democracy can only be chosen when it is an option. It hasn't been in the Middle East (except for Israel and in a few Arab states).

Am I wrong, or did our founding fathers chooose democracy when it really wasn't an option? If they want it badly enough they will revolt on their own. You don't think they see what democracy is in countries that have it, you don't think they know "how great we have it"? Why can't you live with the fact that not everyone wants what America has to offer?

[bwohlgemuth]

What's our answer again?

Please point out any incident where people were rounded up and mass executed by American or any other allies forces in Iraq.

Can't point to any? Not surprised....

Have you? Or have you been watching too much Geraldo?

Egypt and Iraq? No. But that might change in the future. Now that the kids are getting older, I am looking forward to some quality travelling time.

Am I wrong, or did our founding fathers chooose democracy when it really wasn't an option? If they want it badly enough they will revolt on their own.

Shall I point out the differences between our revolution and a democratic revolution in say, Saudi Arabia.

US Revolution:
Long distance from oppressing entity (i.e. England was not a 6 hour flight away)
Financing: Mostly from wealthy landowners and from the French

Saudi Revolution:
Right inside the country
Financing: Oil revenues make the Saudi military unlikely to lose, since they can afford to train and pay their own people

Democracy was new, it was really untried in a country this size, and it's worked quite well. We have the most successful economy in the world, we have the highest standard of living, it goes on and on. Sure its gone wrong a few times, but I don't think any country has done a perfect job of anything....

You don't think they see what democracy is in countries that have it, you don't think they know "how great we have it"? Why can't you live with the fact that not everyone wants what America has to offer?

Because I have a really hard time thinking that any person on this planet wants to live in abject poverty, being forced to serve some brutal dictator and having their children live in the same crap. I'm not talking cultural choices like living in a small community or to like, I'm talking about living in fear of saying "Hey, this sucks, I'd like to do something different" and not having your family rounded up and executed. If you honestly can say to yourself "Yes, these people want to live like this...", well, at least you can be honest.

[Sankofa]

Welcome to White Man's Burden and Manifest Destiny.

The way I look at it, this government should be more interested in taking care of its own citizens instead of spending precious resources (monetary and mortal) upon some overseas crusade. Comic book motives only temporarily sate the populous.

To my understanding, core Republican values are lowering taxes and letting states handle issues. Well, the invasion/war certainly isn't lowering governmental expenditures and the parallel of states to Iraq (sovereign nations) seems to hold. Until this government (admittedly a lame duck) starts handling overseas business in somewhere other than an oil field, I'll take its claims of humanitarianism with enough salt to make the Dead Sea look like Lot's wife being passed around the dinner table.

[Massage...Bored]

What's our answer again?

Please point out any incident where people were rounded up and mass executed by American or any other allies forces in Iraq.

Can't point to any? Not surprised....

30,000 Iraqi civilians dead, maybe not rounded up, but certainly dead because of our "Freedom Fist Force".

Funny, you don't deny the other two points that were made.

Democracy was new, it was really untried in a country this size, and it's worked quite well. We have the most successful economy in the world, we have the highest standard of living, it goes on and on. Sure its gone wrong a few times, but I don't think any country has done a perfect job of anything....

Let me make it clear, that I have not said, and don't think that you think Democracy and America are perfect. Fact is, revolutions happen out of a need within the people of that country to change things for themselves. If Middle Eastern citizens want it bad enough, they will find a way to get it.

[MrSpall]

If Iraqi, Iranian or North Korean citizens are asking us to come in and ASSIST them with their own revolution (ala the French with our revolution) then I'm perfectly fine with sending over troops to help liberate a people that long to be free. This is NOT however, what we are doing. We've decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others what they want.

I agree that the American democratic lifestyle has served me well. I enjoy living here and wouldn't want to live under any other system. I'm sure that most people on these boards feel the same way. I'm also mature enough to recognize that the system that works best for me may not be the best for everyone else on the planet to follow.

[MrSpall]

I should've also mentioned the Saudi Arabian dictatorship in the above post, if their citizens want to be free then we should go help them as well. Of course, we won't, as the Saudi royal family has so many ties to the Bush family I'm surprised they haven't just betrothed a twin to them. (Seriously, all they do anymore is party anyway - maybe we need to seperate them. That Prince Bandar would be quite a catch )

FACT - 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabian nationals. If we're truly fighting terrorists, why are we avoiding Saudi Arabia? Oil interests and war profiteering can be such a chore sometimes.

[bassjones]

If Iraqi, Iranian or North Korean citizens are asking us to come in and ASSIST them with their own revolution (ala the French with our revolution) then I'm perfectly fine with sending over troops to help liberate a people that long to be free. This is NOT however, what we are doing. We've decided to take it upon ourselves to tell others what they want.

I agree that the American democratic lifestyle has served me well. I enjoy living here and wouldn't want to live under any other system. I'm sure that most people on these boards feel the same way. I'm also mature enough to recognize that the system that works best for me may not be the best for everyone else on the planet to follow.

Ummm... there were several iraqi freedom fighter groups that did ask us to help in 1992 and we pulled out and left them to be slaughtered. Most of the troubling intelligence reports that now appear false came from Iraqi citizens, which makes it seem to me that they wanted us to come and assist them in taking Hussein out and were willing to lie if necessary to get us there.

There are also several pro-American (or at least pro-Western) student groups in Iran that are pleading with us to come in there and help them overthrow their little tin-horn as well.

Which citizens should we listen to? The ones begging us to come overthrow their Dicktators (misspelled intentionally) or the ones who profit off the misery of their fellow countrymen because the Dicktator has decided to favor their particular ethnic group? By favor I mean they get to rape the other ones' wives, steal all their food, and pretty much do whatever they want w/ no consequence.

[Sankofa]

\Which citizens should we listen to?

Those who cannot afford to be heard in our own country.