SMOKING BAN---BARS and Legions NEED YOUR HELP!

memorymaking · Post by **memorymaking** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:16 pm

I have been trying to get ticketed for at least a month.

Heavy sigh..

Post by **cwallace** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:05 pm

Because you want to be man-handled by one of the 'officers'...

Chris

conley · Post by **conley** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:13 pm

I agree with Garr.....It's eventually going to be a good thing. After about 1 year of going into "smoke-free" bars, then walk into a smokey one & you'll be happy that Ft. Wayne went smoke free. Is it unconstitutional? Well, if it was, then I guess it was also unconstitutional for the government to go into factorys and force them to provide a safe working environment for their employees....i guess the government shouldn't have made these factories quit polluting the rivers and streams.....Who the hell does this government think it is for going into the private sector and doing these things? hello?

Oh, by the way, I'm sure the fact that June is the busiest month for graduations & weddings - June is "lake-season" - June had Greekfest, Ribfest and Germanfest - AND Gasoline is 3 frigg'n dollars a gallon....Uh, I'm sure none of those things had anything to do with a lot of bars having a decrease in business for the month of June. As far as the ones that closed......C'mon, they were well on there way to closing the doors anyways - more restaraunts & bars fail than succed regardless of smoking bans.

Is it a constitutional issue - YES
Is it a health issue - YES

Sorry, I have to give a slight edge to the health issue, which trumps the constitutional issue.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:37 pm

Just heard Hall's is cancelling all live entertainment for next year...

And phony health issues that have already been disproven do not ever trump constitutional issues IMHO

Big John · Post by **Big John** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:51 pm

everyone needs to start chewing tobacco. bring back the spit bucket.

Post by **cwallace** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:05 pm

define 'phony health issues' please...there are VERY legitimate health issue with smoking and I as a NON-smoking tax payer has to foot the bill for some of it...

As far as Hall's canceling all live entertainment for a year because of something like this...why not STOP making statements by screwing others? You honestly think HALL'S is hurting for money?

You think they ONLY make their money from a few 'bars' in town? Their hotel is smoke free unless you are in designated rooms and is pretty much booked solid...

Their cake business isn't going to suffer at all...actually it MIGHT get more business due to people hosting their own parties now instead of going out to a bar to celebrate something...

Somewhere like Hall's canceling live music is a BS move to try to make a point...

I still see a solid group of people hanging out on Lima and Coliseum on the weekends showing off their cars...

I am not going to say that SOME places will be adversely effected by the smoking ban, but as was stated earlier...the majority of THOSE places were on their way out sooner or later anyway...

It is time that these places become more creative and give reason for people to come out other than a 'place to smoke'. I don't go to a lot of places anymore, smoking or not, because they are just 'old'. Nothing new to draw me out.

I remember when they banned smoking at the coliseum (specifically hockey games) and they said it was the end of hockey in this town because people wouldn't go out to the games if they couldn't smoke...well a solid string of attendance records has thwarted that 'theory'.

The last few years it has actually dwindled to only a hand full of people smoking out in the doorway area they have designated...now people will go out on the deck of the lounge...

Economics has this funny way of coming full circle...all that is lost will be regained in some other fashion...

Maybe these bar owners that are complaining should have been invested in other areas that are now growing and striving do to current and future trends. Have a little foresight and be READY for this stuff...

As far as constitutionality goes...if this is unconstitutional then they need to look into reversing all of the drinking and driving laws that prevent 'private' citizens from driving the vehicle THEY pay for on the roads that THEY pay for with their tax money while intoxicated...and being as 'pro life' as you are you might want to rethink your position on telling OTHERS what they can and can't do with their OWN bodies...

Chris

memorymaking · Post by **memorymaking** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:21 pm

I do understand the health issues. I truly do. I can explain further about my deep seeded believes there... BUT the act of restricting what can go on in a privately owned business, or better yet a private club where consenting adults go, is what the point is.

Yes, it would be better if people didn't smoke. BUT it is not up to the government to tell people what can legally go on in a club where no one is forced to go.

The market should drive non-smoking bars.. if it were going to be so popular then people would have started their own.

Government shouldn't take businesses away (eminent domain) to give to other businesses (liquor licenses suddenly flooding the market to give out of town developers a leg up).

It's a privacy issue. It's a property rights issue.

No one says anyone has to go into a smoky bar or private club or work there. I can so totally see why it shouldn't be in our public buildings where people have to go to pay government fees and conduct businesses.. but NOT in a private business where it is an option to go in that door or not.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:23 pm

Hall's is dropping live music because it's not paying for itself at those businesses. You're a business man, you know you don't borrow money from a succesful business to pay for a failing one - unless you think it will pay off long-term, that is.

As to your constitutionality arguments... I think the more apt constitutional comparison is to stupid seatbelt laws and helmet laws, since driving drunk could actually result in killing someone and should be banned... And if "My liberty ends at the bridge of your nose" a woman's liberty ends at the bridge of the child's nose if the child is indeed a human being...

memorymaking · Post by **memorymaking** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:26 pm

cwallace wrote:Because you want to be man-handled by one of the 'officers'...

Chris

Awe, Chris, you know me too well....

Post by **cwallace** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:28 pm

I agree with that totally..

Don't get me wrong with my above post...

BUT...it is amazing to see how many people are have beliefs that contradict their argument about the governments intervention...

I am totally behind the market driven mentality of it as well...very good point there...

I do, however, think it is wrong to say 'this is the reason my business failed' and look for someone else to blame other than the fact that some of these places just didn't need to be there in the first place...

Also for some places who have FOREVER been looking for a reason to weasle out of paying local entertainment in lue of cheaper cable music feeds and juke boxes to say the reason they are 'canceling live music' is because of this...I guarantee a few of them are GLAD they can finally blame something or someone else for a reason to cut back on live entertainment...I won't name names, but this site has approached quite a few places and have been given pretty blunt opinions towards the scene. Some of these venues are threatening to cancel live music as well...music that they made VERY clear to us they wanted to get rid of long ago because they had cheaper and in their opinion better options...

Chris

memorymaking · Post by **memorymaking** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:35 pm

It is true, I am without a doubt, that some businesses were destined to have difficulty regardless of the smoking ban; but, when the problems are wide-spread in every sector of the community's nightclubs and legions you have to look at the situation seriously.

These people aren't making money like they were.
They won't be paying taxes like they were.
The tax base will erode (because these new businesses from out of town get so many abatements and breaks THEY won't be paying taxes) and then
WHO will get stuck with the tax bill?

What about the blight of these places going under?
What about the people on welfare roles because they are no longer able to find a job. Think a waitress job isn't hard to find now?

There is much more long standing harm to a community when you take rights away of the people who support and built and community.

Post by **cwallace** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:36 pm

bassjones wrote:Hall's is dropping live music because it's not paying for itself at those businesses. You're a business man, you know you don't borrow money from a succesful business to pay for a failing one - unless you think it will pay off long-term, that is.

As to your constitutionality arguments... I think the more apt constitutional comparison is to stupid seatbelt laws and helmet laws, since driving drunk could actually result in killing someone and should be banned... And if "My liberty ends at the bridge of your nose" a woman's liberty ends at the bridge of the child's nose if the child is indeed a human being...

Well if you think second hand smoke doesn't have an effect on someone then please bring forth the medical papers showing such.

I don't get why a smoker would even want to support or be on the side of these companies that have blatantly lied to them for so many years anyway...that is a whole different subject, but valid at that...

As far as right and what effects others...that list is TOO big to list here...

You support drug use at all? IF so...which ones? The bad ones or the REALLY bad ones?

You support seat-belts or helmets? What about CELL PHONEs and TEXT MESSAGING?

There are so many arguments within this argument it will really NEVER saticfy anyone fully...

BUT...several of these bars that are 'canceling' shows...have already admitted (well before this issue arose) that they didn't make money off the bands anyway...they just did it for variety and or to support the bands...NOW...they want to throw the bands under the bus to make a point...

And yes...you DO spend money from one 'similar' business to another to maintain it...if for the future. You don't loose either way because those places have enough money to absorb it via tax cuts/kicks and other means...

Chris

sevesd93 · Post by **sevesd93** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:11 pm

Big John wrote:everyone needs to start chewing tobacco. bring back the spit bucket.

Already on top of it. I haven't got the bucket yet, but i am using see though cups and it seems to gross everybody out.

Steel String Bender · Post by **Steel String Bender** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:18 pm

memorymaking wrote:Dr. John Crawford/(R) Ft. Wayne Council At-Large: "It is possible some business will lose business. But economic considerations do not trump the health issues of a law designed to improve public health. It is possible Fort Wayne, Indiana, is the most resistant place to change in the entire world."

Crawford pegs my BS detection meter into the red everytime he opens his mouth to speak. I suspect his real agenda is to legislate morality to the greatest extent possible. I bet he's just getting started folks...

Morphine Child · Post by **Morphine Child** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:43 pm

bassjones wrote:Just heard Hall's is cancelling all live entertainment for next year...

And phony health issues that have already been disproven do not ever trump constitutional issues IMHO

One study trumps all other studies disagreeing with what you're ideas are? It still baffles my mind how little it takes to convince you that you're right when it comes to your ideology sometimes.

Give me a week and I'll convince you the sky is purple and I'm the anti-christ.