Atheists...

MrSpall · Post by **MrSpall** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:05 am

Just discovered this post, and am excited to contribute my $.02 I love these discussions.

My basic notion of things (no evidence, other than gut instinct) there is a God. Not a God that's watching over us each day and changing or altering things in the world, but more of a creator.

Garr said that the universe in infinite, with no beginning or end. I agree that there may have been multiple universes over hundreds of billions of years, each expanding to a point then contracting down to an incredibly small dense dot in the vast emptiness before booming out with life again. I just have to ask where all of that came from. At some point, before the multiple big bangs, all of this matter had to be created somewhere. If the universe is infinite, why not God?

As I look around the universe, I see too many things occuring in concert. Naturally occuring things like the ratios in the spiral seeds of a sunflower or the dividations in a conch shell. There are laws of nature we will never comprehend. I believe these things had to come from somewhere. More to the point, I think that these things had to come from a God of some type.

I'm not saying that the Christian idea is correct, I don't think any one religion is really hitting all the right notes, nor will one ever come about that does. If a religion did begin to teach about a dispassionate Creator God that put things into motion and set up the laws of nature a trillion years ago then moved on I'm not sure that it would resonate with people.

MrSpall · Post by **MrSpall** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:08 am

Sidebar:

Thousands of years ago, Greeks and Romans believed their religious texts to be the word of God. In 7th grade I spent two months studying their mythology and laughing at the silly stories. Will people in two thousand years look back on our stories and giggle?

"Gideon? Who was that? And he put these in all the hotel rooms? HA!"

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:16 am

Thank god we came to our sences and now worship a carpenter from over 2000 years ago; as opposed to beings who represent elements of nature.

Naturally occuring things like the ratios in the spiral seeds of a sunflower or the dividations in a conch shell.

For this I would side with natural selection as opposed to a supernatral force. Maybe the ratio adds strength to the shell; increasing the survivalability of the mollusk inside?

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:07 am

One day we'll figure it out. Let it be Kirk

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

Plot Outline: Capt. Kirk and his crew must deal with Mr. Spock's half brother who hijacks the Enterprise for an obsessive search for God.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:11 am

MrSpall wrote:Sidebar:

Thousands of years ago, Greeks and Romans believed their religious texts to be the word of God. In 7th grade I spent two months studying their mythology and laughing at the silly stories. Will people in two thousand years look back on our stories and giggle?

"Gideon? Who was that? And he put these in all the hotel rooms? HA!"

I don't see why that isn't already happening now...
Not to go off topic too much, but I believe in God, yet I cannot hold the Bible to be accurate - it's been written by numerous authors, handed down through the centuries, and it has gone under so many translations and revisions. Wikipedia has a good article on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible

Morphine Child · Post by **Morphine Child** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:31 pm

MrSpall wrote:
My basic notion of things (no evidence, other than gut instinct) there is a God. Not a God that's watching over us each day and changing or altering things in the world, but more of a creator.
Diesm? That's the one that is tough to rule out. I always said if I could accept any notion of god, it would be that one.

Garr said that the universe in infinite, with no beginning or end. I agree that there may have been multiple universes over hundreds of billions of years, each expanding to a point then contracting down to an incredibly small dense dot in the vast emptiness before booming out with life again. I just have to ask where all of that came from. At some point, before the multiple big bangs, all of this matter had to be created somewhere. If the universe is infinite, why not God?
As far as the universe being infitnite, that's another interesting theory I've read some about. But not enough to comment on. I always liked the elastic universe theory as you stated...the universe expanding and collapsing over and over...Carl Sagan was a genius. As for matter needing to be created somewhere, as I said in a previous post, god isn't a simple solution. Because then you have a complex being that is capable of creating a universe without having been created itself. I don't understand how that being spontaneously creating itself is easier to grasp than matter seemingly appearing out of "nothing".

As I look around the universe, I see too many things occuring in concert. Naturally occuring things like the ratios in the spiral seeds of a sunflower or the dividations in a conch shell.
ID theorist have been using examples like that for years. Mainly because it's difficult for us to comprehend millions of years of evolution and adaptation. Read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins for explanations to all your questions concerning complexity...you'll realize it's not that complex.

If a religion did begin to teach about a dispassionate Creator God that put things into motion and set up the laws of nature a trillion years ago then moved on I'm not sure that it would resonate with people.

You're absolutely right. Because then peole lose their favorite parts of religion such as the feeling that they more special than they are. And the feeling that they'll reunite with lost loved ones when they die.

Morphine Child · Post by **Morphine Child** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:48 pm

MrSpall wrote:Sidebar:

Thousands of years ago, Greeks and Romans believed their religious texts to be the word of God. In 7th grade I spent two months studying their mythology and laughing at the silly stories. Will people in two thousand years look back on our stories and giggle?

"Gideon? Who was that? And he put these in all the hotel rooms? HA!"

Strangely enough, most of christianity was adapted from these same religions. If you read the story of christ, you'll realize it's quite similar to that of Hercules. Go here - http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm - and scroll down to comparing jesus to other historical figures. His story is so similar to previous existing characters, you really have to wonder...christianity is heavily based upon the pagan belief system and other small cults that never quite took off. Here's another site talking about the pagan ideals: http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/

Every day my mind is blown a little bit more by the fact that this information is quite available for everyone to see, but the refusal to even look at it is so strong. The obvious resistance occurs due to how long this notion of god and christ has existed in everyone's lives. I can speak for any person in here that went to bible school as a child and sang the song "jesus loves me", or heard the Ark stories, or the Moses stories....these things were put into our heads before we were even CONSCIOUS of understanding. I remember thinking "wow, that's a funny story!" Luckily for me, I never lost the rationale that it was no more than a make believe story.

I encourage people to read. Read anything you can get your hands on that contradicts what you may believe. Then make up your own mind. Don't let your childhood ideals, and what was cemented into your brain when you were 5 years old run your lives. Or our country for that matter.

Grindspine · Post by **Grindspine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:32 am

With the progress of science I'm baffled that the number of believers in this country continues to go up.

I'm sure that has to do with the trend that those with the lowest amount of education are less likely to use birth control and thus have more children. Those who are less educated often cling to religion to explain the workings of the world. Those who are less educated use less birth control. Therefore, more children are brought up in ignorance and religious background...

I've never understood the argument that science disproves a god.

Science cannot disprove a "god". Science is a method of discovering and clarifying information. If something could not be disputed with any amount of physical evidence, it is not scientific. All scientific theories are subject to change with new information. To say "we understand everything" would be ignorant. A detail can be missed.

In now way is this saying that religion is correct because it isn't disprovable. Rather, I'm saying that religion is blind to ALL EVIDENCE CONTRARY TO IT. Religious accounts ignore evidence and logic. Science does not.

So far, science hasn't fully explained the origin of the universe. Although there are thousands of theories, surely something cannot come from nothing.

Try taking some physics classes. Some geology/astronomy wouldn't hurt either. Though they will probably not immediately make all things clear, each will give you a better understanding of the most plausible history of the universe.

Grindspine · Post by **Grindspine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:34 am

I admire thinkers like Dawkins, but I don't think we'll ever find out the answers to these questions because we can't comprehend them.

Does that mean that we should not try to comprehend? I think not.

Grindspine · Post by **Grindspine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:36 am

sharkmansix wrote:Thank god we came to our sences and now worship a carpenter from over 2000 years ago; as opposed to beings who represent elements of nature.

And thank God I'm an athiest!

Grindspine · Post by **Grindspine** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:40 am

Garr said that the universe in infinite, with no beginning or end. I agree that there may have been multiple universes over hundreds of billions of years, each expanding to a point then contracting down to an incredibly small dense dot in the vast emptiness before booming out with life again. I just have to ask where all of that came from. At some point, before the multiple big bangs, all of this matter had to be created somewhere. If the universe is infinite, why not God?

Can't be disproved, therefore, not science... But it's really not logical. I have not seen evidence that has convinced me of a god, rather than random chance... (statistics classes don't hurt either).

And why is it so hard to accept that the universe, perhaps, remains? Both forward and back through time, it remains, neither created nor destroyed (as in the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy).