Stem-Cell Research - Vetoed!

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:14 pm

jewlee138 wrote:Yeah, it's all relative & discussion on a FWM.com board probably won't make any difference....

....but I know how frustrating it is to be in a position where you work to raise money for medical research and then you aren't "allowed" to do the research neccessary to move towards a cure.

Scientists THINK they can find cures using what many millions of people consider unethical means. Yet, not one cure has come from any of this research so far. Meanwhile, cures are actually being found using adult stem cells for research, including cells from the eye, skin tissue, spinal chords, etc... And the most promising cell research is that taken from umbyllical (spelling ?!?!?!) chord blood of BORN fetuses. Seems to me the President made a tough choice, but he made the right call.

Also, not allowed is a bit of a misnomer. Scientists can research all they want, they can even harvest all the embryonic stem cells they want. They can't however get federal funding to do so. Nothing's been banned (I think it should be), it's just not being funded over ethical considerations.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:15 pm

in your opinion.

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:43 pm

Nothing's been banned , it's just not being funded over ethical considerations.

correct!

but back to SM6's original point,
was the behind the scenes veto,
which he questioned.....

how it was done, to me, doesn't matter.
that it was done, does.

heaven's chimney · Post by **heaven's chimney** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:10 pm

(

traumaqueen wrote:how about folks just stop killing unborn babies?

)

(if it's unborn, it's not a baby. isn't that what "unborn" means? an unborn anything doesn't even exist - and i'm not even getting philosophical. the number four is an abstract concept. a baby, if so-called "un-born," isn't born, it doesn't exist. )

(or an even better idea: why dont babies quit making themselves. no one asked the sperm and ovum to unite. this is their own doing. f' em.)

Second, it sucks that we cant do medical research because of the sh*tty drama of political make believe. This is a political issue, not even an ethical issue.

Third, I challenge some silly mf'er to explain how this is an ethical issue.

Fourth, it's funny that we have to go after the symptoms (aka the bad stuff that we need the stem cells for) instead of the cause of the diseases - aka industry. maybe people in third world countries are genetically superior to us and that's the reason they dont have the diseases.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:13 pm

( traumaqueen wrote:
how about folks just stop killing unborn babies?
)

(if it's unborn, it's not a baby.)

"If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant"

Okay, no to be serious. There are ethical issues at play. Creating embryos for the purpose of harvesting them for research is as much an ethical issue as breeding animals for the purpose of research.

heaven's chimney · Post by **heaven's chimney** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:26 pm

bassjones wrote:Okay, no to be serious. There are ethical issues at play. Creating embryos for the purpose of harvesting them for research is as much an ethical issue as breeding animals for the purpose of research.

a-ha! You rose to the challenge! And you even properly presupposed my potential argument!

But as much as I agree with you, you are wrong. It should be crystal clear. While Ethically, in terms of logic and ethics and philosophy and all that, it is as much of an ethical issue as breeding animals for the purpose of poor research, it isn't. Might makes right, and so far, might doesn't give even one millionth of a millionth of a sh*t about animal research as much as it does about "abortion."

And: In no way can abortion be justified on grounds of "harm" - it's a qualitative call based on subjective prejudices. If someone wanted to grant infants (or any human) moral superiority (which, personally, I believe they're entitled to to a certain degree), they would have to establish a superiority. There's absolutely no superiority that humans have over animals. That incongruence leads to a misplaced fanaticism against abortion that could be so much more beautifully aimed at more central bad things. How can Bush justify the death of Iraqi/Afghanistan/Any Children as necessary evils and then pretend to protect children in the stomachs of evil, evil, evil mothers. (Seriously, any woman that thinks her body is hers and her responsibility needs a reality check. It's actually mine and every other man's - equally. Aww! EGALITARIANISM!)

Whoa. Rant Central up in here.

Morphine Child · Post by **Morphine Child** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:16 am

This is probably the thing that irritates me the most about Bush. I'm rooting for the Europeans or Japanese to get this embryonic stem cell research rolling. Of course, I'm pro choice and I could go on about that, but I won't right now.

Anyways, it's nice to see that the Republicans in congress actually disagree with their figurehead on this one. I've seen a few Republicans with medical backgrounds step up in the last few weeks and say that they respect the presidents views, but disagree with them. It's about damn time they stand up to this ignorance.

One thing about Bush and many republicans that annoys me is their support of the death penalty, and them having no problem sleeping at night even though roughly 30,000 Iraqi citizens have died since we invaded....yet when it comes to supporting the research of frozen embryos, they get their panties in a bunch, for lack of better terms at the moment. You can say all you want about "they get what they deserve" or "war is war", you still have people dying, and the support of people dying. For such a "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet" party, the unwillingness to back this research is the most asinine thing I've ever heard.

QWETTY · Post by **QWETTY** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:58 am

Giving free reign to have an abortion gives girls the perfect oppurtunity to be a whore... GREAT!... no. I am pretty sure there is an epidemic of STDs, abortion doesnt help. I have very different views on this when it comes to rape victims and the likes though.

But since we have all these embryos, why dont we use them? They arent helping anyone being frozen, and since they are frozen, they ARE dead. end of discussion. Why do we waste government money keeping them frozen, when they could be used to help others? ANSWER - too many conservatives/republicans with religous views.

Here is my view on the religious side. From what i understand (a person who has nvr been to church) when someone dies, their 'soul' is taken form their body to heaven/hell/whatever. ummm... since all these thins are dead, therefor they have no souls, therefor THEY wouldn't care if they were used to help ppl. Hell, we normally bury dead ppl, or burn them! If i had the choice i would help ppl even in death, rather than be 6 feet undeground, or a pile of ash.

Just the opinion of an uneducated kid.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:14 am

One thing about Bush and many republicans that annoys me is their support of the death penalty, and them having no problem sleeping at night even though roughly 30,000 Iraqi citizens have died since we invaded....yet when it comes to supporting the research of frozen embryos, they get their panties in a bunch, for lack of better terms at the moment.

^ Agreed.

Giving free reign to have an abortion gives girls the perfect oppurtunity to be a whore... GREAT!... no. I am pretty sure there is an epidemic of STDs, abortion doesnt help. I have very different views on this when it comes to rape victims and the likes though.

I think you underestimate the decision process involved in having an abortion. Sure, like anything it's going to be abused by certain groups of people, but on the whole I would wager chosing to have an abortion is a lengthy and emotional process.

Why do we waste government money keeping them frozen, when they could be used to help others?

The thing is we don't keep them. After a certain amount of time they are discarded as medical waste.

QWETTY · Post by **QWETTY** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:40 am

I think you underestimate the decision process involved in having an abortion. Sure, like anything it's going to be abused by certain groups of people, but on the whole I would wager chosing to have an abortion is a lengthy and emotional process.

im in highschool now... if you only understood how many abortions go on. Most of course being "accident trips", boyfriens taking care of it, etc.

sharkmansix · Post by **sharkmansix** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:43 am

im in highschool now... if you only understood how many abortions go on. Most of course being "accident trips", boyfriens taking care of it, etc.

Yeah, I never went to high school.

Grindspine · Post by **Grindspine** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:32 pm

Since when did this become about abortion instead of what to do with unused, frozen (not actively alive) stem cells for research?

Massage...Bored · Post by **Massage...Bored** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Grindspine wrote:Since when did this become about abortion instead of what to do with unused, frozen (not actively alive) stem cells for research?

Exactly!!!!

QWETTY · Post by **QWETTY** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:16 pm

i apologize...

use stem-cells for science!

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:36 pm

Grindspine wrote:Since when did this become about abortion instead of what to do with unused, frozen (not actively alive) stem cells for research?

I'm opposed to both, but I also recognize the difference. There have been several abortion debates. This isn't one. It's an ethical issue, and I believe support for one all but necessitates support for the other, but they are still two separate issues and jumbling them together helps neither side of either argument.