Broken Bands and Old Songs

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:50 am

Scenario Number 1: I'm on another message board that a friend of mine hosts. He used to play guitar in a band with me a LONG time ago and one of the other members there was also in the band. I was the lyricist and singer. We had a bassist (sort of) and a drummer (sort-of).

The band split when both guitarists quit on the same day. The drummer then echoed that sentiment and the bassist followed with one of the guitarists to form another band (which, consequently, I ended up joining later) and leaving me as the only person who didn't actually quit.

My question for opinion (and knowledgeable legal advice) is this: if a member of that band (in this case, me) wanted to rearrange some of the old material, perhaps rewrite some of the parts and change the formatting around; would that person be subject to obtaining the input and/or approval of the previous members of the band who actually wrote the instrumental portions of the songs?

All the songs were copyright under the band name, with no credit ever listed to individual musicians (though, I would never claim that they did not write the music). We did not register with ASCAP or BMI or other agency.

What royalties/compensation would be due to those previous members if the songs were rearranged, performed for payment, or recorded and sold?

I say that the musician is NOT subject to input/approval from the previous members, but would owe them market standard compensation for any monies made off the material. That is an opinionated view, though, and not based on any real legal knowledge.

Scenario Number 2: If a musician writes a song from start to finish on an acoustic guitar, piano, or other accompaniment instrument and then brings that completed song to a band whose individual members add basslines, drum tracks, and complimentary guitar parts to that song, where does the writing credit lie?

I say that the writing credit lies with the original writing of the song and that arrangement credit lies with the other members since they didn't actually write the song, they supplemented it.

Any thoughts?

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:14 am

IMHO

Agree with you on both scenario's !

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:36 am

Legally speaking, there are three components to a song - lyrics, melody, arrangement. So, if you wrote the lyrics, arranged the original song and wrote the melody, you are the sole owner of the song. If you wrote the lyrics and the melody, but they assisted in arranging the song, you can use the lyrics and melody to create another arrangement.

Arrangement = the chord changes/key of song/etc... and has nothing to do with the individual instrumental part - unless one part is considered a key piece of the song, i.e. the guitar hook to "My Girl". In that particular case, the guitarist wasn't given any songwriting credit, but IMHO he should have been.

That's the best of my understanding of it anyway. I'm sure Silencio, Recordstar, or Kathy S. could shed more light on that.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:42 am

Does it matter legally if a drummer of a band comes up with all of the beats for every song the band plays? It almost seems like the drummer gets screwed the most when it comes to writing credit.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:51 am

If the drummer suggested putting the song in 11/8 time instead of 4/4, then he/she might have an arranging argument (however, that's a pretty weak argument). If he played drums to the original arrangement, no dice.

If you write the lyrics, write the chord changes, and write the melody of the song, you get a writing credit. If you don't do that, no writing credit for you. Now some bands agree that all songs are credited as being written by "x-band", or lyrics by "lyricist" music by "x-band", and that's fine if the writer(s) agree to that concept, but I would highly caution a songwriter from doing so. Bands break up - all the time - and you don't want someone else having legal writing claims to songs you actually wrote.

Silencio · Post by **Silencio** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:52 am

In terms of copyright,, a song consists of two components: the lyrics and the melody. The author of a song is the person (or persons) who creates the words and the melody. (Because re-harmonizing a song is a staple of the arranger's trade, the chord changes are not considered a component of the work.)

It is possible to copyright an arrangement of a song, but the arrangement is not the song. Drums and bass parts, chords, licks, turnarounds... none of these make you the author of the song.

So, to answer them backwards, the answer to #2 is that you are correct: the writing credit goes to the guy who wrote the words and melody. The rest of the band gets bupkis.

Now, as to #1: you say the songs were "copyrighted" under the band's name? This is impossible. A band is not a songwriter. If you registered the work with the library of Congress, then you had to list the names of the people who wrote the songs. So, if no credit was given to individual writers, then these songs have NOT been copyrighted. If you DID send them off to the LOC and listed the author as "Cat Butt Redness" or whatever the old band was called, then nobody really holds the copyright, because there is no legal entity with that name, and you wasted your 30 bucks.

The question then, is, who actually wrote these old songs, and who holds the copyright? Did you write them, by yourself? Then you don't owe anybody anything. Did the other members of the band contribute lyrics and/or melody parts? Then you need to work things out with those guys.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:57 am

Right. I get that confused. I think it's because I think it should be the way I laid it out

The bad part (maybe) is if you are like me and don't sing, but do write, so you come to the band with a full arrangement, but leave the singer to insert the melody (his part), just like you leave it to the guitarist/drummer/keyboardist/etc... to come up with their own part. Now, the singer gets a songwriting credit for coming up with a fairly simple melody, even though I created the entire song, pretty much. To me, that seems bassackwards.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:11 pm

bassjones wrote:Right. I get that confused. I think it's because I think it should be the way I laid it out The bad part (maybe) is if you are like me and don't sing, but do write, so you come to the band with a full arrangement, but leave the singer to insert the melody (his part), just like you leave it to the guitarist/drummer/keyboardist/etc... to come up with their own part. Now, the singer gets a songwriting credit for coming up with a fairly simple melody, even though I created the entire song, pretty much. To me, that seems bassackwards.

I agree, it seems unfair considering that a singer who might not even play an instrument gains full credit of a song when all they did was add lyrics and a vocal melody.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:15 pm

Well, I have to point out one error, Silencio. The copyright is created at the instant that the song is created, technically. A REGISTERED copyright is a completely different thing. While it is more difficult to defend that position in a court, you don't have to register your work to own the copyright to it.

The band did not stipulate individual writing credits, we just called it X-Band wrote the songs.

Something that I do need clarification of, though, is melody. I mean, legally, what does it mean? Is melody the accompaniment or is it the way that the lyrics are sung? I wrote all the lyrics, but I did so to a musical arrangement of instruments that the other members devised.

See where it gets muddy?

Silencio · Post by **Silencio** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:17 pm

I've never heard of this apporoach to writing a song. Coming in with a bunch of chords and licks, and them expecting the singer to come up with his "part?" Is that how songs get written among bands now?

That would explain a lot.

What is remarkable to me is the idea you guys share that the song is the stuff the band plays, and that "all" the singer did was come up with some "lyrics and a vocal melody." Amazing! You understand that means he or she wrote the song, right?

I mean, if you feel differently, then just make sure all your songs get copyrighted with all the band member sharing a co-writing credit.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Yes, I know copyright is automatic at creation. Jesus, I try to add some actual music business knowledge around here once in a while and invariably take sh*t for it. If you knew about copyright, you wouldn't be asking this quesiton now, would you?

Anyway, what you're saying is that the songs have not been registered. That still doesn't answer the question. Whe wrote 'em?

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:20 pm

Aero wrote:
bassjones wrote:Right. I get that confused. I think it's because I think it should be the way I laid it out The bad part (maybe) is if you are like me and don't sing, but do write, so you come to the band with a full arrangement, but leave the singer to insert the melody (his part), just like you leave it to the guitarist/drummer/keyboardist/etc... to come up with their own part. Now, the singer gets a songwriting credit for coming up with a fairly simple melody, even though I created the entire song, pretty much. To me, that seems bassackwards.
I agree, it seems unfair considering that a singer who might not even play an instrument gains full credit of a song when all they did was add lyrics and a vocal melody.

Actually, if they add lyrics and the melody, that's a pretty key component of the song (legally, the entire song). What I'm talking about is a writer coming in with a complete arrangement and lyrics and all the singer does is come up with a melody that fits the music already there, 90% of which are simple melody lines based on the arrangement.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:27 pm

Silencio wrote:I've never heard of this apporoach to writing a song. Coming in with a bunch of chords and licks, and them expecting the singer to come up with his "part?" Is that how songs get written among bands now?

That would explain a lot.

Shoot, man. Almost every song my first band did was written that way. The two guitarists and bassist lived together and they would write the instrumental portions far ahead of my hearing them. I would come to practice, they would say, "Hey, we have a new song."

I would listen, work out a melody in my head, test it with generic lyrical ideas, and then write the lyrics around that melody. When I write my own music, I do it the same way. I develop an instrumental accompaniment first, then write lyrics and melody to it.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:28 pm

Silencio wrote:I've never heard of this apporoach to writing a song. Coming in with a bunch of chords and licks, and them expecting the singer to come up with his "part?" Is that how songs get written among bands now?

That would explain a lot.

What is remarkable to me is the idea you guys share that the song is the stuff the band plays, and that "all" the singer did was come up with some "lyrics and a vocal melody." Amazing! You understand that means he or she wrote the song, right?

I mean, if you feel differently, then just make sure all your songs get copyrighted with all the band member sharing a co-writing credit.

That's how I've always written, since I don't sing and any melody I attempted to write would be boring at best. Sometimes I bring lyrics and fit them to an existing arrangement (usually spun out of a jam session of sorts), sometimes I bring in a complete arrangement with lyrics. I don't expect to get a songwriting credit for coming up a killer bass line - that's just part of my job as a bassist. Why should a singer get a songwriting credit for coming up with a vocal part - unless they wrote the structure of the song and lyrics as well.

It makes sense under the system that was in place 40 years ago when most performers came in and sang songs that were completely written for them. It doesn't make sense the way that most bands write now, which is a guitar player will come up with a riff or sequence of chord changes, somebody else will write lyrics, and then the singer will come up with a vocal line to those chord changes. To me, those are equally important parts of the songwriting process, yet technically the only songwriting credits go to the lyricist and the singer.

Garr · Post by **Garr** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:32 pm

Silencio wrote:Yes, I know copyright is automatic at creation. Jesus, I try to add some actual music business knowledge around here once in a while and invariably take sh*t for it. If you knew about copyright, you wouldn't be asking this quesiton now, would you?

Anyway, what you're saying is that the songs have not been registered. That still doesn't answer the question. Who wrote 'em?

Nobody's giving you any sh*t. I actually know a good deal about copyright, but all the reading I've done (several books and web pages) did not lay out the "lyrics and melody" thing you dropped on me (for which I'm very thankful).

My question isn't about copyrights, specifically, though. Or at least, the nature of it was not. From the information you've given me, though, it turns out that I technically have the writing credits for all my bands' previous songs as no one else wrote lyrics or melodies. I did them all.

inkspot · Post by **inkspot** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:48 pm

It seems like the distinction here is basically the terms "writing" and "arrangement".

Most people commonly use the term "writing" for any portion of a song, whether it is the lyrics, the vocal melody, the drum line or a series of chords on a guitar, but in musical legal terminology "writing" refers to the vocal portion of the song and "arrangement" refers to the instrumental portion of the song.

Am I getting that right? I am not versed in all this jargon.