Thoughts on last night's American Idol

Oliver's Army · Post by **Oliver's Army** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:46 am

within reason, not flukes

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:51 am

Oliver's Army wrote:I can safely say that there was not *ONE* album that sold a gazillion copies that was done cheap, easy or fast.

Even the sloppiest lo-fi recording (by a major label intending to sell said gazillion copies) has craploads of time, effort and machinery to make it sound lo-fi.

I was speaking in relative terms. Certainly nobody takes the time that Pet Sounds, Sgt. Peppers, Aja, etc... took. And sometimes the more quickly done recordings are more inspired.

Sometimes the production side of things takes longer than the performance does. For instance, Shania Twit. Recording's pretty quick. Hire a bunch of super session players, have Shania "sing" all the songs, then the fun begins. Not to poke fun at her, but I was told by an engineer at a session I was on - who was an assistant engineer on one of her recording sessions - that she couldn't pass an AI audition on her vocals. ProTools, Antares Autotune and a fabulous ass (see, I can appreciate talent when I see it

) are the extent of her "musical" ability. Being Mutt Lange's wife doesn't hurt either. She's not the only one.

When did it stop being about music and start being about how someone's ass looks in a pair of tight leather jeans? MTV???

Silencio · Post by **Silencio** » Fri May 18, 2007 12:20 pm

Yeah, everybody knows somebody who knows somebody who worked on a Shania or Whitney or Britney record, and they can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the star in question sucks and is only saved by the electronic wizardry of brilliant engineers The Guy Who Knows A Guy.

Those stories are pure horseshit, and you KNOW they are because not very many people get to work on a Shania or Whitney or Britney record. Even the small number of people who do probably never even meet the star: only about six guys in the whole world actually work on the vocal sessions for people like that. And you haven't met any of them, reagrdless of what they say. Hell, what makes you think Mutt Lange needs anybody to help track her vocals?

Plus which, whether you like her records or the amount of AutoTune Mutt uses or not, the truth of the matter is that Shania Twain worked harder and sounded better that you EVER will. SHe busted that fabulous ass 6 nights a week doing shows at amusement parks and on cruise ships, honing her act and working with a single-mindedness that got her where she is.

I also know from actual experience that an engineer or producer has two choices: work with a singer that requires a zillion hours of editing and tuning, or work with a singer who is 98% perfect without any editing or tuning. We all choose the latter. The canard about how none of these people can sing without a studio is BS. Yes, they use those tools. Can they perform without them? Yes, they can, really damn well.

This standard bar-back loser yak about how the whole music industry sucks, the entire audience sucks, true art is dead, everybody who's famous isn't any good, blah blah blah... that's like a junior high school fantasy of the music business. The actuality is just like any other business: a bunch of nice people and a bunch of jerks, all trying to get one or two feet ahead of the pack. As a rule, the ones who do a really hot job get there.

As far as when it started, entertainment has always been about charisma.

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Fri May 18, 2007 12:21 pm

[quote="bassjones Certainly nobody takes the time that Pet Sounds, Sgt. Peppers, Aja, etc... took. And sometimes the more quickly done recordings are more inspired.[/quote]

AAAaaahhh.... you speak of the mostly long lost days when
the artist(s) had much more control of the studio....

Alas.... very few and far between.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:01 pm

Silencio wrote:Yeah, everybody knows somebody who knows somebody who worked on a Shania or Whitney or Britney record, and they can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the star in question sucks and is only saved by the electronic wizardry of brilliant engineers The Guy Who Knows A Guy.

Those stories are pure horseshit, and you KNOW they are because not very many people get to work on a Shania or Whitney or Britney record. Even the small number of people who do probably never even meet the star: only about six guys in the whole world actually work on the vocal sessions for people like that. And you haven't met any of them, reagrdless of what they say. Hell, what makes you think Mutt Lange needs anybody to help track her vocals?

Plus which, whether you like her records or the amount of AutoTune Mutt uses or not, the truth of the matter is that Shania Twain worked harder and sounded better that you EVER will. SHe busted that fabulous ass 6 nights a week doing shows at amusement parks and on cruise ships, honing her act and working with a single-mindedness that got her where she is.

I also know from actual experience that an engineer or producer has two choices: work with a singer that requires a zillion hours of editing and tuning, or work with a singer who is 98% perfect without any editing or tuning. We all choose the latter. The canard about how none of these people can sing without a studio is BS. Yes, they use those tools. Can they perform without them? Yes, they can, really damn well.

This standard bar-back loser yak about how the whole music industry sucks, the entire audience sucks, true art is dead, everybody who's famous isn't any good, blah blah blah... that's like a junior high school fantasy of the music business. The actuality is just like any other business: a bunch of nice people and a bunch of jerks, all trying to get one or two feet ahead of the pack. As a rule, the ones who do a really hot job get there.

As far as when it started, entertainment has always been about charisma.

I can't give you the name of the engineer, but the studio was/is the Sound Kitchen. One of the players on the session was Phil Madeira on B3. This was not a hack session. It came up because he was so impressed with the pitch control of the person I was playing with. "I don't think I'll have to use the Antares at all, unlike the last session I did w/ ST." Me - "That bad?"... "She wouldn't make it past Simon Cowell on an audition."

To be fair, he did say her voice records very well because it's very strong, and has a perfect pop/country tone (you obviously can't fake that), but she has terrible pitch control - and you can now fake that. 20 years ago, if you were a strong singer, but had pitch problems, you were done. Not the case anymore. It's a great tool in spots, but it's being abused.

Oliver's Army · Post by **Oliver's Army** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:13 pm

I never believe the studio gossip until I hear it for myself.

I'm with Silencio.

It's not like Shania, or any glossy act, was picked up off the street yesterday because of her ass.

She toiled for a while without the aid of Mutt Lange, studio fixery or million dollar sessions.

You don't get the chance to work at this level without showing talent along the line.

People f**k up sessions, voices get tired....whatever. But don't deny that almost EVERY singer is corrected.

Yes, even the singers YOU like.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:30 pm

Brittany can sing, so can all the others. Shania can sing. She apparently has more frequent pitch control problems than some other singers. The kind of pitch trouble that wouldn't be a big issue live, and probably wouldn't be noticed by 90% of an audience if that, but can be problematic in the studio. Now, rather than having a singer repeat a performance, it's "fixed" in antares.

I think some of those fixes lead to sterile sounding performances, which is most of what I hear on radio anymore - sterile, overcompressed, dynamicless music. That's what Clive Davis does now.

Silencio · Post by **Silencio** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:40 pm

I didn't say it was a hack session. The closer engineers get to the big-time, the more of this crap they indulge in. I mean, who's gonna believe me or Brother Jon if WE tell out stories about tracking Shania? I figured it had to be some Nashville clown.

Even if the story was true - and it isn't - do you really think that people get ahead in this business by slagging their real customers? Do you honestly believe for a second that someone who ACTUALLY works with Shania Twain would badmouth her to a bunch of sessionites? What would be the percentage in that, in a town as small and incestuous as Nashville? Better I crab to Shania about what a bunch of lowlifes YOU guys were.

Yeah, when local VO talent come around here, I love to tell them my stories about what a talentless hack Harry Carey was, what a mean-spirited creep Mason Adams really is (and how many takes he burned trying to spit three lines for Aunt Millie's), and how Jeff Hedquist is dyslexic and needs to read everything four words at a time. It's real good for business.

(BTW, just so nobody gets the wrong impression, I made that stuff up to make a point... Harry Carey was lovely gentleman, as is Mason Adams, and Jeff Hedquist doesn't need more than a couple of takes to nail anything.)

Sorry, bassjones, but I think you were just being treated to the usual BS about big names, so you'd walk away thinking your engineer at Sound Kitchen is a real playuh.

And if Shania Twain showed up to sing for your band, you'd never shut up about her. Seriosuly, if you ever heard anybody that good singing in a Fort Wayne bar, you'd be knocked out.

Silencio · Post by **Silencio** » Fri May 18, 2007 1:42 pm

Oops... double post.

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Fri May 18, 2007 3:06 pm

The more I think about it, you're probably right... Could have been he had a bad day with her. Could have been he was blowing smoke about how good this singer was - she's from here and really is incredible - but producers tend towards the hyperbole when they're working with an upcoming artist and trying to get them on a big label - this I do know and have seen personally. Could have been he had a personal issue with her... Could have been a number of things.

Wasn't the first person I heard say something like that about her either though.

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Thu May 24, 2007 9:37 am

All I Can Say is....

Joe Perry wtf? dude what were you thinkin....

bassjones · Post by **bassjones** » Thu May 24, 2007 9:44 am

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

WBOB · Post by **WBOB** » Thu May 24, 2007 9:50 am

bassjones wrote:$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

YUP!

MynameisJenn · Post by **MynameisJenn** » Thu May 24, 2007 10:26 pm

my only thought on american idol was today when 12 middle schoolers said, "miss nickell you look like jordin sparks!" I'm glad that this show is over, but i'm slightly sad that I don't think it will continue for many more years.