sankofa, keith, other teachers... give me a good reason

Non-music discussion. Discuss things that are on your mind or things that don't have anything to do with music. Lets try to keep it clean people, there are little children present.

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bassjones
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sankofa, keith, other teachers... give me a good reason

Post by bassjones »

this wouldn't work...

Some friends of mine and I were brainstorming over the weekend and came up with this Idea:

The complete elimination of age based grade levels in schools. Same state standards (or higher), same assessment (as far as the state is concerned), but coupled with other types of assessment too. But what if the standards are divided into chunks so that once a student demonstrates mastery they can go onto the next set of standards. The smarter students will fly through the standards at a faster rate than the slower students, which is turn would lend itself to teachers spending time with students that need help. If done correctly, the students could be finished with all the standards up through the 12th grade by the time they are sixteen. At this point students can begin undergraduate work, enroll in some corporately sponsored internships in which students develop actual work skills. I'd also like this school to have a mandatory set of courses for music, and a second language. Might be a pipe dream, but in exploring this model, it's a better solution to meeting the goals of No Child Left Behind in my opinion.

How it would work is all students would enter at the same base level. Once a student mastered, let's say 1st grade reading, they would then move on to 2nd grade reading (even if they were still working on 1st grade math skills) and so on... If it takes a student 3 years to master 1st grade reading, well, it takes a student 3 years to move on to 2nd grade reading. Each student works and develops their skills at their own pace (with guidance obviously). We could easily do this with all current skills areas - Reading, Writing, Math, Science, History/Social Studies, etc...

I realize this would necessitate a complete overhaul of the current system, but anybody who doesn't think we need one hasn't been paying attention. It may mean a return to neighborhood schools where there is one teacher for each skill and grade level (obviously teachers with multiple subject competence would be even more valuable) at least through what is now Junior High School level, then they could move to centralized high schools like we now have, but only if they had mastered grade 8 of at least 75% of the skill areas. You could then make remedial help available for those areas they are below grade level in, but you are assured they are at least competent in most areas.

I don't know, just a thought we started developing. I'm wondering how those of you who do this professionally think it would work.
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Post by Sankofa »

It might work in a very small, private school, but such a seismic shift in the paradigm of age-based education would result in an inordinate amount of crying foul. I've heard the idea spoken on before and believe it to be worth exploring, but try explaining that to a parent whose 5th grade aged kid is in 3rd grade. People like their pigeonholes and age is a standard.

There's also the issue of developmentally appropriate practice, not to mention socialization issues. Let's say the kindergartener is speaking on molecules and knows more about science than fourth graders, the kid's going to be sore thumb extraordinaire.
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Post by deek »

Did you discuss the social implications of this overhaul...that to me, seems like a bigger issue than proficiency level in a core subject?
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Post by MrSpall »

Jones - love your idea, with small changes. Make sure a student has mastered most subjects at a certain grade level before advancing them. In your model, a student may be at the 7th grade reading level, while still doing math at a 1st grade level. Rather than have the student continue advancing on one track, while stalled out on the other, work with the student to increase skills in the weaker area. If he's already mastered 1st grade math, that is wonderful. It means less distraction while he's trying to learn to read. Think of it like those military drills where no one gets to finish until the whole team does. No subject advances until the whole person does. This also means that the kid reading at 1st grade isn't having to read 7th grade story problems. :) I do however love the idea of students advancing at their own pace through the grades.

Kofa - unfortunately you're correct. In utopia this idea would work, in America it'd be one lawsuit after another.

As far as socialization goes, I think that once a kid finds the level he's supposed to be at, he'll fit comfortably with the other students at that level. I know when I was in elementary, I was advanced for my age. The other kids in my class hated me, I screwed up curves, and I started acting dumb so that I didn't get beat up. I also spent a lot of time acting out because I was so bored with what the teachers were talking about. I ended up getting to go down to the principal every day for the last ten minutes to fill out my "daily behavior journal".
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Post by bassjones »

You could still group them by age with skill level perhaps. We do it with athletics already. If the Freshman basketball player is ready for Varsity, he plays varsity. If he's not, he plays Freshman or Reserve. Say, all 8-10 year olds, reading at grade 4 level in one group, etc... It would obviously have to be a gradual shift in the system. And parents who are more worried about Juniors feelings than his reading ability are already part of the problem. Piss them off, who cares.

as for the molecular biologist in kindergarten, that kid is already going to be a seizmic outcast. Might as well learn something well he's at it.
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Post by deek »

As to your athletics example...you only compared the one way... If a Senior plays basketball at the Freshman level (assuming he makes the team), he doesn't play with the Freshman (he likely sits the bench or just is on the practice squad).

The other thing I see lacking, is the lack of tracking...meaning systems. The school system would need to track a students progress in order to place them in the correct classes...you would also need a teacher that has more focus on students (not saying that doesn't already happen) in order to place them in the proper subject level...so there's more interaction.

I like the idea, so don't get me wrong. I was one of the "smart kids" in school, and my favorite class was algebra as a freshman. I was in the class with a bunch of upper classmen and our teacher was great. He had a rule that after the first test, if you got an A, you didn't have to do your homework as long as you maintained an A on quizzes and subsequent tests...it let me catch up on other work or just focus on something else.

Honestly, I think this idea would work a lot more once pre-college classes go online. Its not too far away...parents have been homeschooling for ages. It shouldn't be too long before kids will be able to take high school classes online...he downside though, is still the socialization. I still think that is a big part of going to school...to interact with other people.
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Post by bassjones »

funny you bring that up. This came up in a discussion of the advantages/disadvantages of homeschooling/private school/public school
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Post by =^-..-^= »

A lot of the concept of teecher looping (having a teecher follow a class through the grades) was meant to address such issues. I wouldn't put more than 3-4 grade levels in one room.

A lot of what you sound like you are trying to accomplish is more instruction that is tailored and individualized to each student's needs. That can come through smaller class sizes.

Unfortunately, the trend is more toward a one-size-fits-all approach to ejucashun. This is brought on by increased standards and federal meddling in state skools. As Americans, we expect a variety of choices in consumer products that meet our specific needs - except in our skools. Privatize them all. Let the free market produce excellence in our skools and in our kidz.

One trend your idea would thankfully eliminate is peer learning, which is code speak for the overworked teecher lets the smarter kids teech the slower ones, which is code speak for the smart kids coming home frustrated because they are held back and expected to do most of the work on group projects and are expected to help the slower kids instead of excelling to their own potential. Talk about not rewarding excellence!

As for the socialization issue, Most home-skooled kids I've met are socialized to adults, and not their age group. They are some of the most articulate and polite kids I've met because of this. What can hanging with someone who is as untrained in maturityas you are teech you about being mature? It's the blind leading the stupid.

Your approach might work in private skools, (and many smaller skools are the one-room-skool arrangement.)
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Post by =^-..-^= »

The "new-old" push now is for gender separated skools. I understand that skools that have tried it have higher test scores and fewer discipline problems.

I can see why. A lot of my discipline problems are with boys who are what we call "peacocking" to show off to the girls.
"Yesterday Mr. Hall wrote that the printer's proof-reader was improving my punctuation for me, & I telegraphed orders to have him shot without giving him time to pray." -Mark Twain

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Post by bassjones »

As the father of a skool-aged daughter, I'm 100% in favor.
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