..

[conley]

Damn...here we are into semantics. Let it die for crying out loud.

You started it.

[girlzrock]

Okay, I'm gonna back to the original topic of the post because I have a few questions and I may be showing some ignorance with ASCAP but here it goes...And please understand that I'm not putting this in terms of the "big time" or "professional" musician who relies on the royalities that are generated through ASCAP for their music. I want to know from the stand point of a local artist who never intends to have a recording contract but is doing music as a small time business. I'm not being small minded I just know the reality of my personal situation.

Do bars that have DJ's and jukeboxes also have to pay a fee to ASCAP or is it only those places who have live music? (I realize that may be a stupid question and if I had the time I would reserach it myself but I figured someone here would know the answer).

How much does an artist have to pay to be a part of ASCAP and do they have to be a member to receive royalties on any of their music that is played (I think I know the answer to this but thought I would ask anyway)? Is it even worth it for a local artist to pay the dues if they are not getting huge royalties from their music?

Do you guys believe that by ASCAP suing an area bar this will reduce the number of bars around here who will choose to have live music? I know there are several bars who are members of ASCAP and I'm not saying that places who have live music shouldn't be members to keep everything on the up and up, I just know that I have seen bars and clubs who cannot justify the cost of the ASCAP dues and choose not to have live music. Again, I am speaking from experience and I know for me personally this did eliminate one of my favorite places to play. I know that the cost isn't that much but for bars who are already struggling financially many will not see the benefits of supporting local music from a business perspective.

Okay that's it for my questions. I am not in any way, shape or form trying to be a smart a$$ with any of my questions or comments. I really want to know what everyone thinks.

Thanks for your input!!

[bassjones]

If a hobbyist can beat out the Pro for the gig, and is such a big threat to the Pro's income, what does that say about the Pro?

That he won't play in a dive for 10 bucks and a bar tab?

Just funnin' ya, sevesd... no flame fanning intended.

$25 and domestic bottles, thank you very much

[G Fresh]

How much does an artist have to pay to be a part of ASCAP and do they have to be a member to receive royalties on any of their music that is played (I think I know the answer to this but thought I would ask anyway)? Is it even worth it for a local artist to pay the dues if they are not getting huge royalties from their music?

ASCAP is free to join and there are no dues. Same thing goes for BMI I believe. You don't have to be a member to get your royalties, but it is a lot easier to do so if you are. ASCAP basically keeps track of where and when your music is played and collects your royalties for you taking a small percentage of it for their fee. Like I said, there are no upfront costs involved and since they just take a small cut from your royalties if and only if you get some you never even see the money they take out.

[Oliver's Army]

The way I understand it is that ANY establishment that uses *music* as entertainment must pay ASCAP/BMI.

This means DJ's, Bands, Jukeboxes and even background music.

Music outlets like satellite radio and cable radio has special pricing for these establishments that cover the licensing costs.

I have heard of mom and pop stores that have a radio on in the background getting dinged for fees because it technically was regulated as "entertainment". Granted, that's few and far between, and the rules are grey and open for individual interpretation.


On a side note...What bars have stopped music because of this... especially what is/was your 'favorite' place?

[jtkennedy9]

Yeah, making the "professional" versus "hobbyist" analogy sounds kind of elitist............It may not have been your intent; but, it is perceived that way.

In fact, I know a lot of "professional" musicians that don't gig nearly as much as some "hobbyists"......does that make the professional less professional than the hobbyist based on how often they gig out? And if so, does that now make the professional the hobbyist, and the hobbyist the professional?

I'm so confused, I don't even know what instrument I play now.....lol

[Silencio]

Jen:

"Do bars that have DJ's and jukeboxes also have to pay a fee to ASCAP...?" DJ's, yes. Places that use packaging services like Muzak don't, because the fees are built into the price, and jukeboxes might work like that (they're usually rented, aren't they?)

"How much does an artist have to pay to be a part of ASCAP and do they have to be a member to receive royalties on any of their music that is played? Is it even worth it for a local artist to pay the dues if they are not getting huge royalties from their music?"

My initial fee for joining ASCAP as a writer was $10, no dues since. I don't know about BMI. Yes, you DO have to be a member of a Performance Rights Organization (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) to get your performance money... that's how it's done. If you don't own copyrights on any songs, there is no point in belonging to a PRO. But royalties don't have to be "huge" in order to add to one's income.

"Do you guys believe that by ASCAP suing an area bar this will reduce the number of bars around here who will choose to have live music?" No, I don't. ASCAP and BMI have been charging these fees for many decades, long before we were born, and it didn't kill live music in the 40s or 50s, and I don't think it's killing live music now. There have always been bars that tried to skate on the fees, and when confronted made a big deal out of giving up on live music rather than pay. In my experience, these bar owners wanted something for nothing, and they treated their bands accordingly (the Dash-In excluded... I think that's a case of a place that just runs on a really tight margin). Truth is, live music pulls a crowd: all things being equal, people will go to the bar with live bands. You know well-established venues like C-Street are paying, and it's not running them out of business.

So, no, I don't think ASCAP/BMI fees are a hardship on bar owners. If you can't pay those fees and turn a profit, then you're not doing it right, and it's not ASCAP's fault.

I also don't think that there is much of a distinction between a "professional" or "amateur" musician when it comes to small-town gigging. There is a huge gulf between someone with a pro attitude and someone who lacks same. WHen I played live in the 70s, I was a full-time professional. Later, I worked at ad agencies and played in a weekend band or two. I brought the same full-on professionlism with me whether I was doing six nights a week in a club or playing a wedding reception on Saturday night, just as I do now producing commercial tracks (and you've seen me work, so you know I'm not kidding).

[girlzrock]

On a side note...What bars have stopped music because of this... especially what is/was your 'favorite' place?

The Dash-In. I was told that they stopped having live music because they couldn't justify the cost of it (that's when John was involoved). My understanding is they decided not to have original music because it just wasn't bringing enough business to justify staying open later. I loved that place. It was my first gig in town and paid really well from a soloists perspective.

Thanks to everyone so fay who has helped to answer my questions!!

[girlzrock]

Silencio, thank you so much for the information!! I really appreciate it and it was very helpful.

I definitely agree with you on the professionalism. I think any musician who chooses to play out should act in a manner appropriate with being a business person because in essence that is what you are.

Thanks again for your input!!

[G Fresh]

My initial fee for joining ASCAP as a writer was $10, no dues since. I don't know about BMI. Yes, you DO have to be a member of a Performance Rights Organization (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) to get your performance money... that's how it's done. If you don't own copyrights on any songs, there is no point in belonging to a PRO. But royalties don't have to be "huge" in order to add to one's income.

You had to pay to join ASCAP? I joined a few months back and it didn't cost me a dime. Have they changed their procedures? Also, I didn't know that about having to be a member of a PRO to get your royalties, I just thought that it made everything easier. If you HAVE to be a member of one of these organizations to get paid for your songs all the while paying them a percentage it seems a little like extortion to me. I just joined for the convenience factor. Ah well, it's still easier than trying to track everything down yourself.

[Silencio]

I didn't know that about having to be a member of a PRO to get your royalties, I just thought that it made everything easier. If you HAVE to be a member of one of these organizations to get paid for your songs all the while paying them a percentage it seems a little like extortion to me....

And if you DID track everything yourself, how would you collect? By calling up every radio station and bar and cable network in the world and telling them they owe you... what, exactly? How much? A dime? 50 cents? Performance royalties didn't really EXIST before PRO's were formed.

And if your membership was free, what, precisely, are they "extorting" from you?

And whether you join as a writer or a publisher, there is still an application fee at ASCAP, which has gone UP to $25. You must belong to BMI.

I'm not busting your chops, G, I'm just pointing out a hole or two.

[G Fresh]

I didn't know that about having to be a member of a PRO to get your royalties, I just thought that it made everything easier. If you HAVE to be a member of one of these organizations to get paid for your songs all the while paying them a percentage it seems a little like extortion to me....

And if you DID track everything yourself, how would you collect? By calling up every radio station and bar and cable network in the world and telling them they owe you... what, exactly? How much? A dime? 50 cents? Performance royalties didn't really EXIST before PRO's were formed.

And if your membership was free, what, precisely, are they "extorting" from you?

And whether you join as a writer or a publisher, there is still an application fee at ASCAP, which has gone UP to $25.


I'm not busting your chops, G, I'm just pointing out a hole or two.

Maybe not extortion so much as it's kind of like being in a union except that they only take their "dues" when they collect your royalties. I meant extortion in the sense that you HAVE to be a member in one of these groups to collect your royalties or else you get nothing. Again, not saying that I would want to try to call up all the radio stations and collect this stuff on my own (hell, I haven't even sold any music yet, I just got the membership to be prepared for if and when I do) I'm just saying that "required" anything has a tendency to rub me the wrong way a bit.

[Jeff]

..

[Recordstar]

There was a time when fees were charged to join ASCAP. This no longer holds true. membership is free AFTER you qualify for membership. Check with ASCAP for further info on this. BMI does charge a fee and annual "dues". As far a tracking royalties, ASCAP, BMI, SESAC...etc...are just part of it. Also check with the Harry Fox Agency who collects performance royalits at HFA.com. There is definately more to it than just ASCAP or BMI and others.

[Silencio]

Harry Fox doesn't collect performance royalties. They collect mechanical rights fees for MOST (not all, but virtually all) publishers.